aata.eth on Warpcast

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https://opensea.io/collection/dev-21

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greg pfp

Two opinions I’m starting to form: 1. In the future most data (80%) will be stored in one or more decentralized protocols 2. Those protocols will not use the EVM in any way Bullish crypto, bearish ETH

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Kyle Tut pfp

It will be IPFS. CIDs provide all the verification blockchains need while providing the most amount of flexibility related to persistence, decentralization, speed, etc.

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Matthew Fox 🌐 pfp

Matthew Fox 🌐

Probably not Idealistically it could be but the reality is most people use it through a service provider - like you guys! Someone forgets to pay a subscription and everything gets garbage collected Always found other approaches to permanent decentralized storage more appealing for this reason , especially when you can pay once forever Your way closer to this then I am, so curious how you see the general landscape here I clocked out on this topic like 2 years ago so maybe I'm dated

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Kyle Tut pfp

1/ Permanence is a meme. The vast majority of data should not exist for a long-time. Pruning state is necessary, deleting data is necessary. Filecoin and Arweave don't make fundamental sense. The idea of chopping up files into little bits and spreading them out across a global network is extremely inefficient. It causes significant issues. First, geography matters with files. If you want them fast, they need to be close to where you are. Filecoin and arweave are the anti-thesis of that. Second, filecoin and arweave can't run at the edge. This means they can't truly verify data on device, requiring additional systems or protocols to trust where the data came from. Third, they both require additional (expensive) consensus mechanisms. Files don't require their own consensus mechanisms. Filecoin and arweave will always be slow and expensive in comparison to IPFS. continued...

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Kyle Tut pfp

2/ IPFS can optimize where files are stored to ensure speed, IPFS can run on any device, and IPFS can use the blockchain it is attached to for any consensus. Finally, the beauty of IPFS is its CID system. It allows it to be as centralized or decentralized as you want it to be based on the requirements. Neither filecoin or arweave provide the flexibility that IPFS does. / end

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Matthew Fox 🌐 pfp

Matthew Fox 🌐

Great points appreciate the breakdown and perspective

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Kyle Tut pfp

Final point, I don't think IPFS is ideal. The dht isn't great, the p2p isn't great. It has a lot of it's own issues. But, it's the closest thing we have today to where we need to go. While Pinata is obviously closely associated with IPFS, we are open to other options as long as it maintains content-addressable data with verifiable CIDs. Currently, the market supports it over anything else. If that changes, we will adjust. But, from our perspective, the answer is not Filecoin or Arweave.

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v1rtl pfp

thoughts on EthSwarm?

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Kyle Tut pfp

They do some interesting things similar to IPFS and Filecoin but have three main problems. 1) ETH specific. The advantage of IPFS is it is blockchain agnostic. So, it is interoperable across chains giving it a distribution advantage. 2) Like Filecoin and Arweave, it is built around solving persistence, specifically through incentives. This creates way too much technical overhead, significantly increasing cost and efficiency. 3) It can't run locally. If we are gonna have robots transacting crypto, the file storage needs to run all the way to the edge to ensure cryptographic verifiability. Tl;Dr: Mainly a variation of Filecoin/Arweave solving the wrong problem

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aata.eth pfp

Swarm doesnt seem anything like IPFS or Filecoin. 1. I don't understand your analysis at all. IPFS is not just blockchain agnostic, it has nothing to do with blockchains at all. 2. Incentives. Are you claiming that the best way to achieve persistence is to pay (e.g., using fiat cash and backroom business deals) to a *company* to agree to host your CIDs on some specific server? ...Sounds like you are a true pioneer of Decentralised Storage! 😅 3. Swarm cant run locally? What does this mean? Every node (a UNIX Process) runs locally on a machine. If in the other case you mean to say some "local-first" philosophy" then I'm just at a loss for words: do you want to store your data in a storage ecosystem or do it locally? You can do both. (that's called "backup")

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aata.eth pfp

Btw, this is NOT to discourage use of IPFS -- i litereally LOVE IPFS. But IPFS is not a storage protocl. It is .. lets say it: A __content-discovery and routing protocol__ at its heart. Backends may expose an IPFS interface to provide access to their local data. The structure of IPFS relies on altruistic nodes to propagate routing information and sometimes chunks for either: 1. load-balancing processes (CDN-like behavior) 2. cacheing during retrieval (for the off-times that a node attempting to do a request from another node cannot make proper QUIC connection)

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Kyle Tut pfp

1. The value IPFS provides works for every blockchain without needing it's own consensus mechanism. IPFS + another blockchain is superior to any other setup (Filecoin/Arweave/Swarm/etc.) 2. Persistence isn't the biggest issue in crypto file storage and these protocols building complicated systems focused on it is a mid curve ICO era approach to decentralized storage. 3. IPFS can efficiently (certainly in comparison to the others) run on edge devices (phones, robots, IoT). This solves the actual problem that needs to be solved in the space which is file needs to be verifiable from file creation to tokenization. Who cares if a file is persistent if the data isn't verifiable?

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