politics

"In 2016, Hillary Clinton lost Wisconsin to Trump by 22,748 votes; Stein carried 31,072 votes. In Michigan the story was similar: Clinton lost to Trump by 10,704 votes while Stein carried 51,463. Ditto for Pennsylvania, where Trump won by 44,292 votes and Stein pulled in 49,941 votes."

"In 2016, Hillary Clinton lost Wisconsin to Trump by 22,748 votes; Stein carried 31,072 votes. In Michigan the story was similar: Clinton lost to Trump by 10,704 votes while Stein carried 51,463. Ditto for Pennsylvania, where Trump won by 44,292 votes and Stein pulled in 49,941 votes."
https://newrepublic.com/article/187038/jill-stein-green-party-grifter-hand-trump-white-house

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This is some serious gaslighting. Clinton was a terrible candidate and no one who would have voted for Stein would have voted for her. It’s fair to want to pattern-match these numbers but the reality is these green voters would probably vote PSA or just abstain before they’d vote for a hypermilitarist, pro-big bank, sexual abuse–enabler like Clinton.

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We don’t know and ultimately as much as it may be a worse outcome, blaming people who exercise their right to vote is toxic af. What if they vote for Trump instead? 

This entire argument is predicated on the assumption that the Democratic Party has enough overlap with the Greens that this is just some silly trivial  decision. Most people voting for the greens are doing so out of explicitly anti-war, anti-corporate finance, eco-socialist goals, which Harris has not even tried to meet in the middle on. 

I agree that pragmatically throwing a vote to Harris is sensible, but it continues in a long trend of undermining true small D Democratic principles, and I don’t fault anyone for being principled.

The real issue here is the unwillingness of the party to appeal to the left, choosing always to try for so-called swing voters they rarely get.

This is the story I’ve heard as well, tends to be folks who wouldn’t have voted for either candidate.

Though we won’t know for sure.

Totally fair. I’m not disagreeing with the premise that Harris is a more pragmatic, understandable approach. My only point is this article is implying that these votes were stolen from Clinton. I’m not sure you were swaying between her and Stein at the time, and I’m very sure many other Green voters aren’t. I also don’t like the term grifter for Stein. I don’t feel it’s apt. This broken system is welcome to have people willing to push against it, for better or worse. Trump, is a grifter in that he is lying to personally enrich himself. Hillary was even a grifter in that she lied and did unspeakable things to get more and more power. But Stein, I don’t see it. Maybe I’m missing something.

I voted for Stein in 2016 because I hated both candidates.  If I were to vote again in 2016, I would vote for Clinton, who I think is terrible. We have a broken two party system. It absolutely sucks, but until that changes I have to vote for the lesser of two evils. Trump is objectively worse than Clinton. If it was Trump vs Kim Jong Un, I would vote for Trump.

I suspect you’re right. I’m a big believer that presidential systems are flawed and should be abandoned entirely. This entire conversation, in that context, is a waste of time. The best system we have currently is parliamentary democracy with proportional representation. However I remain open to even more democratic systems going forward. In any case, the US’ most urgent priority should be the abandonment of this flawed system.

One last thing. I am way left of Harris. But I also believe that every step left a presidential candidate takes, they gain leftist voters and lose moderates and independents. They have to play the game and find the spot that gets them enough votes to win. If Harris was my perfect candidate, there is no way she could win a general election.