timdaub on Warpcast

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This is unnecessarily hostile to, for example, our go to market strategy - which exists for mission and vision reasons. Both iOS apps and PWAs exist at the mercy of Apple and Google embracing or extinguishing. We have big ideas for Kiwi News, as much as @dwr.eth has them for Farcaster. But, opposed to the Merkle Manufactory team, we actually believe that to truly build a credible neutral social media protocol, this also means walking the talk. "Raising the capital," and having your "team build the consumer DAU iOS app" with investor's money - this is obviously going to come with strings attached. For example, we all know the character of Marc Andreessen. He's not known for his "neutrality," especially since he's an ex Facebook chair. We're building a PWA over shipping three different native apps because we're bootstrapping Kiwi and that is because we truly think that this is the ONLY way to build a neutral social protocol. What MM did doesn't work for us, so excuse our browser lag.

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That said, I think @dwr.eth is here also epistemically wrong as many other frontend devs could confirm. The "browser lag" he's talking about is a 300ms delay that browsers have added in the past to distinguish between a zooming action and any other interaction on the page. I'm actually not sure if this "browser lag" still exists in modern implementations of browsers. Also, the "making a website with notifications" is straight up misleading. I'm pretty sure that Warpcast on iOS and Android is also just a react native app and so its UI is as much rendered in a browser engine as are PWAs. That said, my main point here is, however, that I think the main hurdle for PWAs is the encountering of pre-existing neural path ways in consumers's brains, or, "will a consumer know how to "install" a PWA over a native app?" That and whether Apple and Google will further embrace native apps over webapps are ultimately what really determines the faith of approaches. But these qualities aren't impossible to overcome

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Alberto Ornaghi pfp

Alberto Ornaghi

That is the only issue imho. Users are not used to install PWAs and this creates friction. If installing a PWA was straightforward like a native app the average user will not be able to tell the difference. Imagine a one click install for a PWA and you are done. Not even the need to authorize the “payment” (even if it’s free)

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Yeah, but I think the "just one click install" argument masks a more important point which @dwr.eth also points out in his original cast, namely that PWAs were, in his view, "a fig leaf attempt" at hiding the actual truth of the matter from bystanders. Apple wasn't embracing PWAs because of their enthusiasm for the web. @dwr.eth says they made them more accessible as a way to hide from regulators the fact that they're engaging in monopolistic practices on the App Store. That said, I also think @dwr.eth's viewpoint is a bit naive here, because does Dan really think the "Apple engages in monopolistic practices" regulator concern is being resolved with Apple temporarily deceiving the public? I'd say that is eventually self-defeating as the state won't back down on principles. But for a pragmatic builder, in my view, it doesn't come down to "if they just allowed me to install PWAs a lil better," it comes down to committing or defecting on this dynamic. Is the App Store still a monopoly on iOS?

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Alberto Ornaghi

I don’t care why Apple enabled PWAs. I don’t care what’s behind. I just think that a PWA can be as successful as a native app. If already installed on the device the user will not be able to tell the difference. So it can (if properly programmed) scale to a big user base. Like you use wc or 𝕏 on the web, you can use a PWA on the phone. No difference.

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