franco on Warpcast

franco pfp

I agree with @typeof.eth both in the general point and the logical soundness of it. Correct me if im misunderstanding any side. The way I see this discussion unfolding: @ryanfmason argues: - The U.S. founders invented the idea of universal human rights (or something like it). - When countered that they got it from Locke, he replies: even if they were influenced by Locke, they still invented something new. - He uses the idea that “influence doesn’t cancel invention” to defend calling the U.S. the “inventor” of universal rights. @typeof.eth replies: - exactly—you’re demonstrating that no one “invented” universal human rights out of thin air. It was a cumulative intellectual evolution, not an American invention. - “You’re making my point for me” implies: the existence of influence undermines the notion of a single, original inventor—especially when the influence goes all the way back to antiquity and through multiple thinkers.

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franco pfp

Also, going back a bit, I find Ryans argument that “Anything else is an intellectual branch from the American root” historically inaccurate: - If anything, America is one of several branches that grew from earlier European intellectual traditions—Christian, Enlightenment, and classical. - The European Enlightenment, Reformation theology, and classical republicanism all contributed to the framework of modern human rights and political freedoms. - The United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) is a much more global and multilateral milestone in defining universal human rights—although yes, the U.S. played a significant role in its drafting, it was very much a post-war international effort. I feel like Ryans attempt of trying to protect the idea of U.S. uniqueness by saying “even if influenced, it’s still invention” just shifts the goalposts without defending the original claim (“everything else is a branch from the American root”).

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Ryan pfp

The idea is that all of those string of influences came together in a different way than they had before with the establishment of the USA post revolution. That model (not always logistically, but the idea that all citizens have the same human rights and get represented in a democratic form of government, not just because they can bargain for it, but because it’s their right) is the basis for both post monarch Europe and post colonial western democracies. I didn’t really feel the need to state the obvious that they were influenced by Locke and all that

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