franco on Warpcast

franco pfp

I agree with @typeof.eth both in the general point and the logical soundness of it. Correct me if im misunderstanding any side. The way I see this discussion unfolding: @ryanfmason argues: - The U.S. founders invented the idea of universal human rights (or something like it). - When countered that they got it from Locke, he replies: even if they were influenced by Locke, they still invented something new. - He uses the idea that “influence doesn’t cancel invention” to defend calling the U.S. the “inventor” of universal rights. @typeof.eth replies: - exactly—you’re demonstrating that no one “invented” universal human rights out of thin air. It was a cumulative intellectual evolution, not an American invention. - “You’re making my point for me” implies: the existence of influence undermines the notion of a single, original inventor—especially when the influence goes all the way back to antiquity and through multiple thinkers.

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franco pfp

@typeof.eth logic is sound: Ryan says: “Just because the Founders were influenced doesn’t mean they didn’t invent something new.” But typeof.eth is saying: “If everyone borrows from everyone else, claiming the U.S. ‘invented’ universal human rights becomes arbitrary and ahistorical. That logic could make any moment or thinker the ‘true’ inventor.” The underlying truth: human rights are not a discrete invention, like a lightbulb or iPhone. They’re more like a river fed by many tributaries—Greek philosophy, Roman law, Jewish and Christian theology, Enlightenment thought, English common law, and so on. (Btw Dominion by Tom Holland is a great read on exactly this).

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franco pfp

Also, going back a bit, I find Ryans argument that “Anything else is an intellectual branch from the American root” historically inaccurate: - If anything, America is one of several branches that grew from earlier European intellectual traditions—Christian, Enlightenment, and classical. - The European Enlightenment, Reformation theology, and classical republicanism all contributed to the framework of modern human rights and political freedoms. - The United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) is a much more global and multilateral milestone in defining universal human rights—although yes, the U.S. played a significant role in its drafting, it was very much a post-war international effort. I feel like Ryans attempt of trying to protect the idea of U.S. uniqueness by saying “even if influenced, it’s still invention” just shifts the goalposts without defending the original claim (“everything else is a branch from the American root”).

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typeof.eth 🔵 pfp

typeof.eth 🔵

That’s the main point for sure! Not to mention the contradiction of the original “from Christian theology” and the acknowledgement that it also comes from pagan Roman philosophy

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¿zoo? pfp

also they studied the governance of the native americans, and largely drew their ideas for democracy from that, not from christian ideology

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