Ferran 🐒 on Warpcast

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https://thenetworkstate.com

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Vitalik Buterin pfp

Vitalik Buterin

People who are interested in living in a long-term network state node (so, permanent location, not popup), what are some properties that you would like such a node to have?

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Ferran 🐒 pfp

What’s the real difference between a nation-state and a network state with a permanent location? Like, wouldn’t it just end up being an “innovative” nation-state that uses last tech advancements and trying out new market, governance, taxation and redistribution mechanisms? I get that network states might need less enforcement in some cases, but how would they enforce still important laws? Would it still come down to physical enforcement? And if so, does that mean they’d have a monopoly on violence, like a traditional state? Even if the law enforcement becomes private, we’re not changing much the primitives, and that would be necessary at least for stuff like boundaries and sovereignty, no? And what happens when people have kids, do the kids automatically become citizens of the network state? What if they are poor? Will some rights be above everything? Honestly I’m struggling not to think that a permanent location network state wouldn’t eventually just morph into a nation-state.

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@baseddesigner.eth

Since it’s only a node it won’t be a typical nation state Nation states have some clear properties like clear identity, sovereignty, common territory Nodes may not need to identify as a separate nation

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Ferran 🐒 pfp

Yeah, I get that. My point is that over time, even a network state with might end up looking and acting like a nation-state. Specially if its successful, people like the UX and is convenient. Once you bring in things like governance, physical boundaries, and enforcement mechanisms, doesn’t it start walking and quacking like the same duck? Maybe a cool duck, tho.

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@baseddesigner.eth

You don’t have to reinvent the same duck, governance can be automated, onchain and with ai overseeing things for some of the most experienced members to review or for everyone who opted in, in the node to vote on

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@baseddesigner.eth

If all laws are onchain and government doesn’t exist, it’s just all people acting on the things they want to be done for the node - not sure that’d qualify as the same duck nation and it won’t even matter as much at that point?!

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You can’t have all laws onchain and completely eliminate the need for government. Human coordination isn’t immutable and predictable. So it can't be placed in an immutable layer without governance. Human coordination is complex, abstract, it integrates different ethical frameworks and is multilayered. Plus, we live in a physical world where material conditions can change rapidly, requiring flexible governance. To adapt effectively, we require trusted components and trusted mechanisms to respond accordingly. There is a reason why we didn't see real DAOs yet, as they were envisioned. Plus, AI poses many dangers for governance, I expanded on that here: https://warpcast.com/ferran/0x31860f5a

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Ferran 🐒 pfp

Also, who would decide which laws are uploaded on-chain? What institution would be responsible for creating these laws? And what would the deliberative processes look like for generating these laws? How exactly this process will ensure that is non-coercive and polycentric? Plus, once you upload these laws onchain, if there’s no easy “right to exit,” you’re essentially stuck in a system of bureaucracy, standardization, and centralized authority. Pretty much the same as a nation-state (James C. Scoot dixit) These are some gaps in the network states theory that I didn't see solved yet. I wonder if @vitalik.eth has any opinion on these unresolved issues.

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𝖘𝖈𝖚𝖒

@degencummunist.eth

Don’t discuss non state governance with the libertarian ancaps of this channel who can’t conceive beyond capitalist realism and consider /degencommunism 🙂 /CoordiNations > /network-states https://warpcast.com/degencummunist.eth/0xe9dfcdb8

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@baseddesigner.eth

If there's an institution it becomes a point of failure, creating of laws shouldn't be a role of any single entity and a focus in general we can rely on host's country system as a safe guard but if laws were to be made, onchain, they would've be made in the most simple way possible and you would sign with your wallet to agree current systems are way over bureaucratized to the point it hurts every individual living under them, for example, here in portugal a couple friends got beat up and robbed by some gangs and no one is held responsible, what's the point of laws and the whole system if it doesn't work in the end? all we need I believe is to define some common mechanisms like funding of the node to come from the citizens and the rest can work out perhaps from the culture we bring in if you also have laws set or to be made continuously it only adds a room for corruption to make new laws for certain parties to benefit from and are clear guidelines for others to try to game it

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@baseddesigner.eth

Same way we decide on what's next for ethereum, on the ERC standards etc.

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