acai 🚽🐇 on Warpcast

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https://warpcast.com/~/channel/israel

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Elie pfp

I live in Israel. AMA about the war

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welter pfp

what do you think news outlets are getting wrong/right about the isreal-hamas war? what would you like people to know?

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Elie pfp

Hmm. I don’t follow the foreign news enough. Some mistakes I’ve seen: 1. It’s not only Netanyahu’s war. Most of Israel supports it. The security cabinet included the opposition till recently. And even though it’s been disbanded recently that’s not because the opposition feels we need to stop fighting Hamas. 2. It’s nuts that the far left supports the extreme far right, extremist Muslim terrorists. Gays for Palestine is utterly insane when the only place a gay person can be fully free in the Middle East is Israel. 3. There are only 2 sides in this war. Most critics of Israel completely ignore the reality Israel is in and who we’re fighting. 4. Just ceasefire and stop the fighting. I wish that could happen. Stop all terrorism. Release the hostages. Let’s put an end to it. Israel gains nothing from war. But Hamas won’t stop. 5. Even when we reach a ceasefire it will be temporary. With Hamas in power the fighting will renew within a few years.

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Elie pfp

6. “Genocide”. Israel could wipe out Gaza overnight if it wanted. It does everything in its power to stop civilian deaths. What Hamas wants to do to Israel is genocide. What Israel is doing is self defence. 7. Lastly, anyone else in this position would probably do 10x worse. Imagine 1200 Americans being murdered and 240 being held captive. And then people seeing America as the bad guy for defending itself from these murderers. It’s insane. Being the stronger side doesn’t mean you’re in the wrong. There’s a double standard against Israel. Like israel is the world’s biggest problem. When all we want is to live in peace and security without terrorism.

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Elie pfp

Also on the genocide point. The number constantly quoted is 35000. With no mention of terrorist deaths. Around 15,000 of which are terrorists. Which is actually an extremely low ratio of civilian to combatant deaths. Especially as Hamas fight from civilian areas. Around 1.5:1 civilian to terrorist death rate. But this is almost entirely ignored. Especially by the genocide crowd. There’s also some major holes in the 35k number from Hamas. UN verified 25k. And even those verified names included a lot of false data. Now clearly a lot of Gazans have died. But the exact numbers being spouted are likely off by quite a bit.

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acai 🚽🐇 pfp

i'm not gonna pick on every single point you make here since it'd be probably counter-productive and nothing new would ever come out of all these talking points. just one thing that i'm genuinely eager to hear opinions from you about, what's your thought on the increasingly aggressive settler expansion into the westbank?

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Elie pfp

It should stop. And most Israelis are against it. The police/army does a bit to curb it. But could do more. The other day they were throwing Molotov cocktails at police for taking down an unauthorised settlement. Also if we’re comparing extremism on each side. The major issue is that the extremists are in charge in Gaza. Whereas in Israel they’re the minority. Happy to answer other questions. If you’re a seeker of truth you shouldn’t be afraid of conversations. And it’s inaccurate that people’s views don’t change because of conversations. Even if neither side changes their minds at the end of the conversation it can still be impactful long term. As well as for others reading.

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acai 🚽🐇 pfp

"The major issue is that the extremists are in charge in Gaza." What is your view on the argument that netanyahu's government has always wanted the existence of hamas that they could use to legitimize the takeover of gaza, since the israeli government over the years has helped prop up hamas through qatar?

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Elie pfp

Misunderstanding of what happened. And borderline conspiracy theory depending on how it’s explained. Israel allowed funding into Gaza via Qatar. People complain when funding is not allowed in. And also when it is allowed in 🤷‍♂️ Ultimately the idea was that if the money is allowed in then Gazans won’t fight Israel. If Gaza is wealthy and successful it will have something to lose and stop fighting Israel. Same reason left wing Israelis provided Gazans with work. Clearly this plan didn’t work out. It has been reported that Netanyahu told the right wing parties to let in the funding to keep Gaza and West Bank leadership independent of each other. But to suggest Bibi was funding Hamas to attack Israel so that Israel could go into Gaza is a wild. And just not what happened. Israel is in Gaza right now and doesn’t want it. Israel moved out of Gaza in 2005. And very few Israelis want it back, including Bibi.

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acai 🚽🐇 pfp

on the funding part, netanyahu specifically wanted hamas in power while hamas over the years have been shooting rockets into israeli territories. so it doesn't make sense at all to say that the funding was for gazans while knowing that it'd go into the hand of the organization that are attacking you at the very moment https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000 on the point of israel not wanting to have gaza, i can buy the argument that it's not the official narrative, but the fact that isreali government plans to have idf control gaza post-war and rejects neutral intervention basically gives israel authority over gaza forever, which makes the argument "doesn't want gaza" very thin. besides, there are already israeli developers openly selling real estates in gaza to jewish community in north america

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acai 🚽🐇 pfp

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-says-idf-will-control-gaza-after-war-rejects-notion-of-international-force/

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Elie pfp

I can’t read the Haaretz article. It’s an opinion piece and the author is very far left: https://www.haaretz.com/ty-WRITER/0000017f-da2b-d42c-afff-dffb52b10000 You’ll find a lot of pretty hot anti israel takes in Haaretz opinion pieces. Make the actual points rather than quoting an article. I’m aware people have different views on Bibi, and there’s a tonne of Bibi hate within israel for various reasons. But that israel and Hamas are somehow allies despite 20 years of war I’m not sure what to tell you. Hamas controls Gaza. The UN sending money into Gaza is also sending funds to Hamas by your logic.

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Elie pfp

Israel does not want control of Gaza. It wants security. If America would control Gaza and keep it safe then Israel would be 100% okay with that. Assuming they actually keep it safe. There have been a lot of options to discuss to have Gaza in non Hamas hands. From Gazan clans, to a Middle East security force, to the PA. Although no one wants it. There aren’t people buying land in Gaza right now. That you think this is frankly nuts and out of touch with reality. Yes, there’s a tiny portion of Israeli society that wants to move back in. But the vast majority do not). And there is no government policy for that to happen.

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Elie pfp

One of the major problems in this war is taking extremists and acting like they represent government policy. Or even majority wishes. There are 8m Israelis. And 5% or so will vote for Ben Gvir in the next election. You can cherry pick quotes from those people and pretend it represents actual Israeli policy. It’s a good propaganda tactic. But dishonest and not reality. I’m not sure what will convince you that your belief of israel wanting Gaza back is mistaken. What would it take to change your mind on that? 2 years passing and israel not moving back in? Israeli forces moving out?

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acai 🚽🐇 pfp

if i only say israel in this specific context, i mean the governmental bodies that represent and manage the nation, i.e. the government and IDF in that sense. i've met plenty of israelis before and after oct. 7, and most of them are sensible and pro-peace, regardless of the disagreement on the means to achieve it. so i only take issues with israeli government, incl. IDF, and the extremists among israelis. however, there is a narrative among israel supporters and average gazans should bear a certain amount of blame for being complacent about hamas, and that's where i take issue, since the same argument can be used in almost every group in wars, such as israelis that elected the current government, americans that elected bush administrations, etc.

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Elie pfp

Each case is different. The but government of Israel does represent the Israeli people. Like I wrote above, the opposition also supports this war. They were leading it with Bibi. The IDF does represent Israel. Almost everyone serves in it. So yes, Israelis do stand up for the right to defend themselves against terror.

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Elie pfp

And similarly for Gaza. 75% of Gazans support Hamas. The reason I singled out extremists in Israel because they actually are the fringe. The Israeli leadership is not the fringe when it comes to running this war. It has overwhelming support by Israeli citizens.

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acai 🚽🐇 pfp

so in your logic, the israeli goverment represents israel and israelis, but when it comes to policies such as aggressive settler expansions, they don't? you elected them, so they either do or don't. again, you can't make a cake and then eat it.

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Elie pfp

I’m just explaining basic reality on the ground. Presenting factual information. When it comes to the war Israel is largely united. That’s just reality. When it comes to settlement expansion that’s a far more divided issue. And yes, the far right has some power in Israel. I would like to see them removed from power. It’s a pity we didn’t have a unity government with centre parties and ended in a situation with far right parties having some power.

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acai 🚽🐇 pfp

this is clear to me now thanks

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Elie pfp

Well hopefully we at least got one thing about this conversation 🙏

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