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Haardik
@haardikkk
AMMs: - better UI/UX - largest trading volume - available everywhere - actually decentralized - nicely composable - crypto native - not wintermute why do you think CLOBs are still better?
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@stas
Afaik most AMMs aren't "actually decentralised"
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@haardikkk
Please expand?
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@stas
Most of the AMMs are powered by centralised APIs that cache and alter or "normalise" the onchain data. Their front-ends aren't realtime nor standalone. There's almost no difference between such products and CEXes except for the smart contract powered settlement/database. This trend is taking off under the decentralisation flag which is at least inaccurate and at most a lie to the end users.
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@haardikkk
Are you talking about offchain routing? Finding a path to route your trade? I don’t think that makes it centralized - you can build your own router and it’s not *that* hard to do if you really want to
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@stas
I'm talking about APIs feeding apps in DeFi. When we have a centralized piece of software, we should not call ourselves decentralized. It's not about hard/easy, it's about projects not doing their job. If it was that easy, we wouldn't have this conversation, right? 😉
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@haardikkk
I’m still not sure I get your point. You don’t need to use the offchain router, you can submit your swap for whatever route yourself. And front ends are open source, run your own if you don’t want to use the official ones From the projects perspective what more are they supposed to do?
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@stas
I'm talking about "actually decentralized" AMMs and how most of the AMMs aren't Today we can actually build fully onchain apps. Immutable code. No intermediary/proxy software. No single point of failure. Most of the DeFi is not there yet.
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@haardikkk
Let’s consider Uniswap - arguably the largest AMM - what about it isn’t actually decentralized? I’m having a hard time understanding where you and I differ on the definition of what it means to be actually decentralized
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I prefer us reviewing @aerodrome and @velodrome (for various reasons, but mainly because I don't want to sound salty or point fingers) * there's no centralized software between the end-user and the AMM (the web-app talks in real-time, directly to the smart contracts), one would need to take down both chains (smart contracts and IPFS) to bring down the AMM * there's no tracking, pixels and other privacy concerning software injected into the end-user experience, in fact you can provide your own RPC and keep things to yourself in full * there's no single way to access the AMM, meaning that anybody going to (aero|velo).drome.eth.link will be able to access the public good * there's no cost to run the AMM, no need for SRE, devops, webmasters etc... the upkeep is literally one single transaction `Voter.distribute()` There's a public promise towards the end-users to activate the last of the protocol parameters/calls using open governance within the upcoming release.
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@haardikkk
Appreciate the breakdown. If I’m understanding correctly we’ve concluded that decentralized AMMs do exist? That was the original point I was making I don’t really care if some random AMMs are not permissionless, my point was they can be and there exist ones that are - which is simply not how onchain CLOBs work
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@stas
I believe the accurate conclusion would be that there's little to no difference between most of the AMMs and CLOBs if these are operated in a centralized way. We can fantasize about our AMM orders being placed onchain in a decentralized way, but the reality is that most of them operate on some sort of centralized infra and those AMMs should not be considered decentralized. Also agree to disagree ❤️ Note: permissionless is not the same as decentralized
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@haardikkk
Poor wording on my part, permissionless definitely not decentralized The largest AMMs being decentralized I’m happy with. I also don’t really mind needing to self host the frontend or use my own routing logic if I need to - but we can agree to disagree there Overall though I think the exciting part is AMM design makes it possible, I fail to see how CLOBs/matching engines ever will
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