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MM
@listen2mm.eth
I was told the Trump admin would be effectively the same for Palestinians as a Dem admin. Unsurprisingly, it’s taken less than a week to see that is definitively false and just as dumb of a thought as it sounded before the election https://www.axios.com/2025/01/25/trump-israel-bomb-shipment-hold-gaza
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Rundle 🍖
@rundle
I definitely think he'll be worse in some ways, but I also think he's going to be "donating" less which will have a major impact on the war. I think the key thing from this is that it looks like Biden authorised the sale of these weapons and then reneged on their release Do I think he'll be the same as/worse than Trump? No. Do I think his actions towards the Palestinians were horrific? Absolutely. I just fkn hate the choice of horrific vs worse
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@listen2mm.eth
Not sure what you mean by donating less -- Trump has already shown he's willing to continue supporting Israel's war on Gaza. In fact he'll gladly support any means to an end as long as he can claim the war is over so the details can be swept under the rug. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/24/foreign-aid-israel-egypt As far as reneging on delivering arms, it was a hold which was pretty easy to rationalize (to me at least...) as moral/humanitarian given the already devastating results of the Israeli offensive. Of course we're bothered by the choice of "horrific vs worse" but that is unfortunately the reality we face in many decisions. The sensible and moral choice is the less bad option. People who said a Dem admin would be essentially the same for Gazans as a Trump admin were being extremely naive, at best. I'm pissed off that those people tried to claim some sort of moral high ground instead of being honest about which option would actually reduce negative outcomes for the people in need.
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Rundle 🍖
@rundle
I hadn't seen this, I was under the impression he'd be stopping all of it including Israel so that's a bummer. This whole term is likely to be a bummer on a humanitarian front. I definitely didn't expect Trump to be no worse, but I also largely blame the Dem administration for the fact that he's in. The scale of atrocities that took place under the Biden administration makes the Dems almost un-votable in my eyes, because if the lesser of two evils is still evil, then it is our democratic duty to look elsewhere. Turning away from the Dems means Trump was a shoe-in, but that needs to be a galvanising moment for the Dems to actually figure out how to represent the people that vote for them, rather than push to become more centrist (as has historically been the way) For context we have a similar situation in Aus. Dem-adjacent party one in a landslide after years of Republican-adjacent control, and has spent the entire term pro Israel amongst other violations of human rights.
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MM
@listen2mm.eth
I can only partially agree. Dems proved their weakness losing to Trump again. They are far from a perfect party working in a very flawed political system and it’s fair to place some blame on them. But that doesn’t absolve the Trump admin of their malice and it doesn’t absolve voters of getting duped by the same conman a second time. Blaming the Biden admin for the actions of the Israeli government doesn’t make sense to me. Israel is a strategic and democratic ally who was victim to a brutal terrorist attack, it is not surprising they retaliated against Hamas and that the US supports their ally in that context. The means of warfare are not determined by the US, we don’t have troops on the ground. If someone is going to make a point about Biden aiding and abetting the Israeli offensive, they have to acknowledge that Trump is a more fervent supporter of Netanyahu and Israel than Biden so thinking it would be better under Trump is illogical and naive.
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Rundle 🍖
@rundle
Agree with both points in the first paragraph! Also agree with your overall point that it was naive of people to think things would be better under Trump for the Palestinians. I think there is a different though between thinking things would be better, and thinking things are already too bad under Biden to warrant voting for him. The political system will never changed unless the change is forced. I am perhaps speaking from a privileged position as independents can win seats in Parliament in Australia, and as such a lower house filled with independents is possible (and my dream). That being said, I think the Dems need a radical change if they hope to hold office again any time in the next 10 years. Further, I have to challenge your view about the necessity of retaliation. The attack by Hamas WAS itself a retaliation, not the start of this. Check the death tallies in the "war" between Israel/Palestine over the last 20+ years. I have more to say on that but I'll leave it for now
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@listen2mm.eth
Fair points. I wish the US had a parliamentary system. It wouldn’t fix everything but it would be an improvement. Dems did not provide a strong enough alternative to Trump to get the votes, I have to concede that. I don’t like to say it but I think sexism and racism played a part. Likely not significantly enough to make up for the sizable difference, no way of ever knowing the extent so not all that important. Many people were somehow fooled by Trump, and Dems didn’t meet voters where they’re at. But looking at stark differences in climate change stances and track record of lying, cheating, & general scumbaggery—both of those differences being essentially irreconcilable—it’s hard to believe just how foolish and/or greedy and/or disillusioned the American electorate has become.
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MM
@listen2mm.eth
On the Israel/Palestine part, I agree there’s thousands of years of context and third parties like you sms I can barely begin to appreciate the dynamics of the conflict. I’ll say though, that needlessly killing 800 civilians, injuring thousands more, and taking 250 hostages—many civilians—as part of a retaliatory offensive, is not a form of retaliation I can defend or rationalize. Using civilians, particularly children, as human shields is not something I can rationalize. Israel is going to have to reckon with the pain and suffering their gov and military has caused in Gaza and beyond. They will have to reckon with the international fallout as well. But I think any western power would have done the same or worse if they were in the same position. Doesn’t mean it’s “right” or even acceptable but it’s important context about the world. Trump would do it - he thinks they should have 2000 pound bombs on top of everything else they’ve already got
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