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If stocks didn’t exist, Elon, Bezos, and Thiel wouldn’t be megabillionaires. They’d have to pay themselves and their investors with real income not with this funny money that they can’t actually sell without it rapidly depreciating. All of the insane things rich people do with borrowing money to acquire things essentially for free is because stocks exist, and thus merely eliminating one thing (shares of companies) would radically reshape the world we live in, what wealth means, and the nature of power. Discuss.

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matthewb.eth pfp

seems like a pretty circular argument, essentially "I think billionaires are bad therefore stocks shouldn't exist because they would have less power as a result" also pretty hard to square this ethos with crypto as a whole which prints tokens out of thin air to create value for e.g. a protocol

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I’ll let you in on a secret (that’s not a secret, because everyone knows it deep down, I’ve said it many times, and even created an NFT project premised on this): those tokens are worthless and people are either foolish for buying them or brilliant for recognizing how foolish others are. If you’re not earning trading fees as a token holder, controlling some treasury in a way that benefits you financially or ideologically, or receiving some kind of payment in stablecoins or network tokens (ETH for example) there is no value to the token. Crypto is awesome because it enables new mechanisms, that we’ve recreated all the worst bullshit on these rails is not to be celebrated nor taken as an indication of the direction we’re headed.

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matthewb.eth pfp

I don’t know why you insist on speaking in such a condescending and arrogant way to people equally as informed as you, but it really doesn’t make your arguments persuasive.

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I dunno. I didn’t mean any disrespect. It’s just the way I “tweet” I guess

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“I’ll let you in on a little secret: tokens are worthless” you’re speaking to someone who has contributed extensively to an OG defi protocol that issues tokens lol, the tone is so unnecessary lol. I know what tokens are and am well aware that valuations can be irrational. don’t really agree with the premise that anything, whether stocks or tokens, is worthless simply because it’s not cash dividends being issued to holders or investors. value is more complex than that. anytime your arguments are this black/white and absolute it’s a sign to reconsider your priors imo.

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I think we’re agreeing about a number of things. Most of those things I even included as caveats, like: - most people buy tokens because the market is irrational, not because they believe in the value - value could be due to financial benefit or ideological benefit I also don’t think my view can be summed up as black and white. For example, I have used Juicebox to help buy a friend @liv a car. The tokens to me are just a receipt, if anyone ever wants to reward or gatekeep something to former users of the protocol, that’s cool, but I have no want for someone to buy those tokens. It was just an easy way to donate. My article about onchain patronage sums up my feeling about NFTs which is a little more black and white: that they are proof of payment, and all benefits are tied to that traceability not to the media that might be attached. I do wonder though how much you have considered how your bias colours your argument. If I’m right, I gain nothing; if you’re wrong it hurts your finance/business

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Anyways I appreciate your contribution to the discussion here. It would be very boring to post a thought-provoking idea and just have everyone agree. I also like to hear suggestions for what people think could be the next iterations of capitalism or possible post-capitalist systems. This space is cool because it’s full of people who think big. I appreciate the work you and the team at Juicebox have done, regardless of any semantic disagreements or off-putting interactions we have had.

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matthewb.eth pfp

right, that explanation helps flesh out your views. thank you. w/r/t the last part, I think the issue there is that you can't be "right" about tokens or stocks being worthless and therefore they shouldn't exist. they do exist and the market will decide their value. the market can't really be wrong, it just is. every day it will inevitably change. if you disagree with a particular valuation, you can easily express that view and likewise for your counterparty. for what it's worth, I do believe you're correct in that many tokens (and possibly stocks) will trend towards 0 on long enough time horizons.

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